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The Health Care Debate 
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Penntower
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
aknowledgeableperson wrote:
chingon wrote:
(and we've never had a liberal court).


Guess you never heard of the Warren Court. Too bad.


Guess you don't understand what I mean when I use the word "liberal".


Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:19 pm
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Alameda Tower
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
aknowledgeableperson wrote:
knucklehead wrote:
Bush vs Gore


Don't forget there were two issues for the court. On the first the vote was 7 to 2 that there was a violation of the equal protection clause as to how the recount was being handled. So where is the politics in that? The second issue the was indeed 5 to 4 but that was for what the remedy would be.
Besides, the SC decision did not dismiss the case, it remanded the case back to the Florida Supreme Court. It was a decision by Gore not to continue the case.



Using the equal protection clause to prevent votes from being counted accurately was a joke. If the concern was fairness then a total state recount was the solution. Of course the media did a total state recount and Gore won it.

And why should a Florida residents right to have their vote accurately counted in a Federal election depend on a highly partisan/corrupt state supreme court?


Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:06 pm
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City Center Square
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
Quote:
Guess you don't understand what I mean when I use the word "liberal".


Granted, but then (from Wiki):
Quote:
The Warren Court refers to the Supreme Court of the United States between 1953 and 1969, when Earl Warren served as Chief Justice. Warren led a liberal majority that used judicial power in dramatic fashion, to the consternation of conservative opponents. The Warren Court expanded civil rights, civil liberties, judicial power, and the federal power in dramatic ways.
...
Important decisions during the Warren Court years included decisions holding segregation policies in public schools (Brown v. Board of Education) and anti-miscegenation laws unconstitutional (Loving v. Virginia); ruling that the Constitution protects a general right to privacy (Griswold v. Connecticut); that states are bound by the decisions of the Supreme Court and cannot ignore them (Cooper v. Aaron); that public schools cannot have official prayer (Engel v. Vitale) or mandatory Bible readings (Abington School District v. Schempp); the scope of the doctrine of incorporation (Mapp v. Ohio, Miranda v. Arizona) was dramatically increased; reading an equal protection clause into the Fifth Amendment (Bolling v. Sharpe); holding that the states may not apportion a chamber of their legislatures in the manner in which the United States Senate is apportioned (Reynolds v. Sims); and holding that the Constitution requires active compliance (Gideon v. Wainwright).
...
Over the years his ability to lead the Court, to forge majorities in support of major decisions, and to inspire liberal forces around the nation, outweighed his intellectual weaknesses. Warren realized his weakness and asked the senior associate justice, Hugo L. Black, to preside over conferences until he became accustomed to the drill. A quick study, Warren soon was in fact as well as in name the Court's chief justice.[10]

When Warren joined the Court in 1954 all the justices had been appointed by Franklin D. Roosevelt or Truman, and all were committed New Deal liberals. They disagreed about the role that the courts should play in achieving liberal goals. The Court was split between two warring factions. Felix Frankfurter and Robert H. Jackson led one faction, which insisted upon judicial self-restraint and insisted courts should defer to the policymaking prerogatives of the White House and Congress. Hugo Black and William O. Douglas led the opposing faction that agreed the court should defer to Congress in matters of economic policy, but felt the judicial agenda had been transformed from questions of property rights to those of individual liberties, and in this area courts should play a more central role. Warren's belief that the judiciary must seek to do justice, placed him with the latter group, although he did not have a solid majority until after Frankfurter's retirement in 1962



Quote:
If the concern was fairness then a total state recount was the solution. Of course the media did a total state recount and Gore (might have) won it.

And why should a Florida residents right to have their vote accurately counted in a Federal election depend on a highly partisan/corrupt state supreme court?


Other recounts showed Bush won the election, one was using the standards Gore's team wanted to use. That just shows what kind of mess it was. By the way that supreme court you refer to ruled for Gore in the first place and was all Dems.

Anyway:
Quote:
Florida Recounts Would Have Favored Bush
But Study Finds Gore Might Have Won Statewide Tally of All Uncounted Ballots

By Dan Keating and Dan Balz
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, November 12, 2001; Page A01

In all likelihood, George W. Bush still would have won Florida and the presidency last year if either of two limited recounts -- one requested by Al Gore, the other ordered by the Florida Supreme Court -- had been completed, according to a study commissioned by The Washington Post and other news organizations.

But if Gore had found a way to trigger a statewide recount of all disputed ballots, or if the courts had required it, the result likely would have been different. An examination of uncounted ballots throughout Florida found enough where voter intent was clear to give Gore the narrowest of margins.

The study showed that if the two limited recounts had not been short-circuited -- the first by Florida county and state election officials and the second by the U.S. Supreme Court -- Bush would have held his lead over Gore, with margins ranging from 225 to 493 votes, depending on the standard. But the study also found that whether dimples are counted or amore restrictive standard is used, a statewide tally favored Gore by 60 to 171 votes.

Gore's narrow margin in the statewide count was the result of a windfall in overvotes. Those ballots -- on which a voter may have marked a candidate's name and also written it in -- were rejected by machines as a double vote on Election Day and most also would not have been included in either of the limited recounts.

The study by The Post and other media groups, an unprecedented effort that involved examining 175,010 ballots in 67 counties, underscores what began to be apparent as soon as the polls closed in the nation's third most populous state Nov. 7, 2000: that no one can say with certainty who actually won Florida. Under every scenario used in the study, the winning margin remains less than 500 votes out of almost 6 million cast.



Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
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Alameda Tower
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
So you agree, under a state wide recount Gore would have won.


Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:34 pm
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Broadway Square
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
Bush v. Gore: firing squad or noose.


Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:42 pm
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City Center Square
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
knucklehead wrote:
So you agree, under a state wide recount Gore would have won.


NO. It all depends on how "intent" was used. The would used was "might", not "would". In other words still no definitive answer.

Quote:
no one can say with certainty who actually won Florida


Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:34 am
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City Center Square
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
Given the comments made this week it appears the arguments have switched sides. Obama and the left complaining about "activist" courts and the right saying it is OK for the court to "overrule" the POTUS and the legislature and throw out a law passed and signed.


Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:36 pm
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Administrator
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
What a shock! :---)


Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:43 pm
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Mark Twain Tower
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
Not that it means anything, but according to this New York Times/CBS poll, 68% of Americans hope the Supreme Court repeals the health care law.


Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:35 pm
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Oak Tower
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
When is that ruling supposed to happen anyway?

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Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:51 pm
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Mark Twain Tower
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
July, I think.


Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:53 pm
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City Center Square
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
Two interesting articles recently. Not so much about this legislation but appropriate. One concerned the high cost of dying and the other a personal account of the medical treatment his parents received before their deaths. One in Newsweek the other in Time.

Both sides did some wrong in this legislation, it is a shame there wasn't much leadership and work on both sides to achieve good legislation.


Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:32 pm
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Global Moderator
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
Ruling coming tomorrow. I think you can count on Kagan/Sotomayor/Ginsberg/Breyer for Alito/Scalia/Thomas against. It will come down to Kennedy, with Roberts a bit of a wild card -I can see him going with the majority either way so he can write the majority opinion.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/data?pid= ... Bgsj2E_9jw

I predict ACA is upheld. The Wickard case is decided law, allowing Congress to prevent people from selling things on the open market. Its not a huge stretch to see that same power being applied to require people to buy things on the open market. And with the only penalty being a tax levy, it is in essence a tax-break for everyone that complies, and a raised tax rate for anyone that does not, and Congress clearly has the power to tax. The Court has allowed the commerce clause to be expanded for over a century now (with a notable exception being the Violence Against Women Act), but the most recent case, allowing the Feds to regulate marijuana even if grown for personal use, and thus not across state lines, was upheld, even by the most staunch conservatives on the court. Health care is obviously involved in interstate commerce and striking ACA down would IMO be a large departure from stare decisis.

But we'll see, I'm definitely less confident than I was before oral arguments. But I'd say the odds are probably 52-48 it gets upheld, whereas before I was about 65-35.


Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:57 pm
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Valencia Place
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
It is already known that Roberts has written the majority opinion.


Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:02 am
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Mark Twain Tower
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
What if it's some-what like a split decision? That is, what if they strike down some parts, but keep other parts?

I have a difficult time seeing it completely shot down or completely upheld. Seems like there would be some kind of middle ground somewhere. But, who knows?


Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:51 am
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
I don't see how they could throw out the mandate and keep the pre-existing conditions bit. The two really require each other. The mandate keeps people from not carrying insurance until they get sick, which is what would happen if insurance companies were required to cover existing conditions. Sad, really. It's not a bad law, imo.


Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:42 am
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Mark Twain Tower
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
mean wrote:
I don't see how they could throw out the mandate and keep the pre-existing conditions bit.


Which is why I think it's all-or-nothing for Obama. If the Supreme Court does something weird and decides to uphold only parts of the law, the law could become ineffective overall (depending on which parts they keep and which parts they strike down). So, Obama really needs it to be completely upheld or it's a loss for him, IMO. But, we'll see exactly how it plays out to be sure.


Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:33 am
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Mark Twain Tower
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
I think the pre-existing conditions part could be upheld without the mandate. The pre-existing conditions exclusion has always been rather discriminitory in that insurance companies can exclude some illnesses but not others. Almost every American over 30 has some sort of pre-existing condition of some type (allergies, skin conditions, sleeping viruses). Shingles in the elderly could be considered a pre-existing condition because it is the result of having chicken pox as a kid.

Any skin cancer could be determined to be a pre-existing condition because childhood sunburns cause damaged DNA in skin cells that turn into cancer later.

Even workers with employee insurance plans suffer from the pre-existing condition clause if their employer changes insurance plans. Imagine if you have two kids with juvenile diabetes in your family, and your employer changes health plans. You are on the hook for all their diabetes-related expenses for a year after the change. Imagine how that might affect a lower-paid secretary or janitor. Just because their employer seeks to save money on the health plan, it's like they have to take a large pay cut.

The problem for society with allowing pre-existing condition exclusions for insurance plans is that many people can't afford to pay for their medical expenses, and go without treatment or medicine to save money. This can be disasterous for diabetics, or people who suffer from mental illness like bipolar disorder.

I've always argued that allowing health plans and employers to decide health policy creates an unever playing field for workers with pre-existing conditions, or have family members with them. An employer can wreak havoc on a family simply by changing health plans to save money. Workers can also be stuck in jobs because they can't afford to quit or leave because they lose their insurance, or have to endure the year-long pre-existing condition rule to accept a new job.

My sister has diabetes and major depression and has endured the pre-existing condition period several times because of changes in insurance plans, or being laid-off. One time she accepted a new job, and got through 11 months of the pre-existing condition period only to have her employer change health plans in that 11th month, and she had to go an additional year. Her drugs, and supplies, for diabetes and depression can cost up to $500 a month. I have cousin who suffered the same fate because she is bipolar, and one of her kids is as well.


Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:35 am
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Mark Twain Tower
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
AllThingsKC wrote:
mean wrote:
I don't see how they could throw out the mandate and keep the pre-existing conditions bit.


Which is why I think it's all-or-nothing for Obama. If the Supreme Court does something weird and decides to uphold only parts of the law, the law could become ineffective overall (depending on which parts they keep and which parts they strike down). So, Obama really needs it to be completely upheld or it's a loss for him, IMO. But, we'll see exactly how it plays out to be sure.


If Obama is re-elected, and can appoint maybe two new judges, he might be able to get any rulings over-turned with a different court. I assume if he's re-elected, Ruth Bader Ginsburg will retire because she's had chronic health problems. Then, if Cheney shoots Scalia's face off, Obama might get to replace a conservative. :D

If the pre-existing condition part is upheld, that will still be major victory for Obama and Americans. People underestimate how big a change that is in health care policy by itself. Even if you can't force all Americans to buy insurance, many still will if the subsidies are available to them. If you can cut the uninsured population by any significant percent, it will help a great deal. The uninsured cost us all a lot of money when they can't pay for care, and hospital are required to provide it.


Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:38 am
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Global Moderator
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Post Re: The Health Care Debate
The good thing is, a few major employers have said they will retain some of those measures, including the pre-existing conditions provisions, even if the law is struck down.


Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:32 pm
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