Can't argue with Park Place results, but then again, the state of Kansas is propping up their development. That said, I've been to Park Place a couple of times and find it kind of underwhelming. I am not crazy about the new urbanism concept, only marginally better than a strip mall.

Tango Sed Cantina made the list of top 100 nightclubs i believe its only based off revenue. It said they estimate it pulled in 5-10 million last year, maybe that other new nightclub will pull in a couple million as well.
http://www.nightclub.com/top-100/2012-n ... p-100-list

Good lord, some of the names of these clubs make me wretch. "Happy Endings"? "Cotton Eyed Joe"? "Seacrets"? Ugh.

So, PeachTree is going to be event space?

Friend looked at that space for a wedding reception.

Probably not a bad idea.

Key point. Build garages and h&r block and replace all the utilities. P&l itself was a small expense in the entire district.

Key point. TIF was not the way to build up the area. If there was to be a tax subsidy, and just about everyone knew there would be one, why not go for a bond issue to build it, like Tulsa and OKC. Or use the parking authority to build the garages. Use utility bonds for the utilities. Going the TIF route just keeps this ongoing subsidy talk alive, year after year.

the bridge

water

Unlikely but the district could begin paying for itself and the infrastructure upgrades in the future. Using bonds that would never be possible.

Let the talk happen year after year. Contrarians need something to keep them entertained. Enjoy but I think this horse is dead.

That is my thought. Are the utilities and parking in place if the four condo towers are ever built? If that is the case, then wouldn't it be possible to cover the costs if those buildings do get built and residents pay the 1% income tax on top of the property taxes and the additional sales tax from more people visiting the P&L stores, ect?

For better or worse, this issue isn't even close to dead to many of us. The inflated numbers used to sell the P&L project--numbers that looked too good to be true before the economy shit the bed--are a huge part of the reason so many people are poo-pooing the pipe dream 1,000 room convention hotel. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that the failure of P&L to live up to revenue expectations is the single biggest reason said hotel isn't being built right now. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again.

The point would be that there would be positive talk about the district, how much it contributes to the budget instead of negative talk about the millions of dollars it costs the city in its budget. The bonds wouldn't be on just the district but on the whole city but there could have been a district wide 1% sales tax to assist in bond retirement. The bonds could have been for more than the district, could have been used for a convention hotel and or to help build the condo and hotel in the district and/or other items downtown. In other words the mistake in the decision was not looking at the bigger picture, the mayor and council sold the city short by not dreaming bigger.

Did like your usage of "Unlikely".

How soon we all forget what a sh*th*le downtown was before P&L, and how dead it was at night.

Keep in mind that P&L has increased overall revenues for greater downtown, and will continue to in the future. The reason overall revenues have gone up is because the City has retained or attracted new business into greater downtown. The Downtown Council has estimated that increases in overall revenue are larger than the P&L subsidy, so the City has come out ahead.

There are so many redevelopments downtown--outside of P&L District--that just would not have happened without it. Look at practically every advertisement for a hotel or apartment building downtown, and you will see how prominently the proximity of P&L and Sprint Center figure into the marketing strategy. In addition, a lot of positive media attention nationally has come from the investments Kansas City made downtown. I doubt that Frommer's would have listed Kansas City as a "top destination to see in the world in 2012" without these investments.

Many of the following investments would simply not have happened without P&L:

Would Sporting Innovations have purchased the Hanna Rubber Company building, and be planning additional construction on that block?

Would Data Systems International have moved their headquarters from Overland Park to downtown?

Would Brightergy or Rarewire be coming to the Crossroads?

Would Service Management Group have stayed in the Crossroads instead of moving into the renovated Kirkwood Building, or just moved to Overland Park?

For that matter, would the Kirkwood Building still be standing? Copaken-White-Blitt considered tearing it and two other buildings down adjacent to it. Would CWB have gotten financing to rehabilitate those buildings without P&L reinvigorating the downtown real estate market? Two of the aforementioned buildings were saved.

Would Rees Masilionis Turley Architecture have purchased and renovated 908 Broadway. They rented before.

Would the Taylor Building at 16th and Walnut have been renovated, or the buildings at 16th and Grand, and south of Truman Road on Grand (1517 Grand I think--Lightbox Lofts?)?

What about the buildings up the street near Truman and Walnut where the hair salon and the wine bar are?

What about the renovation of the building that housed Crosstown Station, and now the Resurrection Church?

Would the Ambassador Hotel Kansas City project have gone forth in the former Gate City National Bank building?

Would the Interstate and Mutual buildings, on 13th between Locust and Oak, have been renovated?

Would Sherman Associates have renovated 1006 Grand into apartments, or built the East Village Apartments?

Would the former US Courthouse been redeveloped into Courthouse Lofts?

Would the former Federal Reserve Bank have been purchased and ever had hope of being redeveloped, or would it still be sitting on the market?

Would the East Village project have ever been conceived?

Would The Manhattan Condominiums been redeveloped?

Would Kimberly Clark have invested in the 909 Walnut Tower without P&L?

Would The View have happened?

Would Walnut Tower have been renovated?

Would The Morgan Group have built Market Station in the River Market?

Would City Homes have been built in the River Market?

Would Populous have stayed downtown and built a new headquarters?

Would Barkley stayed downtown and moved into a renovated TWA Headquarters building?

Would Universal Syndicate have moved their headquarters downtown into the Boley Building--a building that had sat empty for years?

Would the Piper and Windows Lofts projects in the Freighthouse District have happened?

Would the Monroe Hotel renovation have happened?

Would J.E. Dunn have built their new headquarters building downtown?

The Crowne Plaza Hotel probably would not have gotten renovated.

The Aladdin Hotel would probably be empty right now.

The President Hotel would probably be demolished by now.

There would be even fewer hotel rooms downtown, which would have affected conventions even more.

There would be no downtown grocery store or movie theater. The Mainstreet Theater probably would be demolished by now. The Midland would be unrenovated and underutilized.

The Copaken Stage theater for KC Repertory would not exist.

Would a downtown school be opening next fall?

Arguably, downtown got new headquarters buildings because of P&L that might not exist now: H&R Block headquarters, Populous headquarters, Universal Syndicate headquarters, Barkley headquarters, and J.E. Dunn headquarters. Many of them might be in Kansas by now otherwise. Three of these headquarters were new structures built from scratch.

I suggest that many, if not all, of these projects would not have happened, and outside investors like Kimberly Clark, The Morgan Group, McGowan/Walsh/Blue Urban, and Sherman Associates would not have invested in downtown. Many more buildings would be sitting empty or underutilized. The reason many developers invested in downtown was simply on the promise of the P&L District, and Sprint Center, being built. And if we had to wait on our hometown lenders and big investors (i.e. Tower Properties), we might still be waiting.

In addition, many people have purchased homes downtown instead of just renting. That is a commitment that many would not have made without the investments of P&L and the Sprint Center.

Proximity to P&L and Sprint Center will be vital to attracting new residents to the future apartments in the East Village, as well as financing and tenants for the redevelopment of the Argyle Building, the former Power & Light tower, the Midland Office tower, the Grand Avenue Temple office building, the Lyric Theatre, the Pickwick Hotel, the Insurance Building (Nick Abnos project) at 10th and Locust, the Blackstone Hotel, the former Oggi Furniture building at W. 6th and Central, the Brookfield and Mark Twain buildings at 11th and Baltimore; and to get financing for the hotel project in the former Federal Reserve Bank.

In addition, there would never be any hope of getting new buildings constructed at 10th and Grand, 12th and Grand, 14th and Wyandotte, 16th and Grand, or 20th and Grand without P&L and the Sprint Center downtown. NONE.

There would be no talk of a streetcar project either.

I doubt Crown Center would have invested in the SeaLife Aquarium or Legoland without the investments made downtown over the past few years.

The only zip codes that had population and revenue growth in KCMO south of the river were greater downtown.

Loftguy, am I correct about this?

Besides, I don't know if it's the City's fault that P&L has not been as profitable. I would lay more blame on the economic crash of 2008, and Cordish's management of the the project.

The question is not whether or not to develop the district but how it was financed. But since you brought it up about the overall revenues for downtown don't forget some of those revenues came at a cost of other areas of the city - gain for downtown but zero gain for the city.

If financed differently the city may not be looking at laying off 105 firefighters among other cuts for the next budget year.

Would the mentioned projects have happened without the P&L who really knows. Development and redeveloopment was occurring downtown beforehand and it is just as likely that development and redevelopment would have continued in one form or another without the P&L. But if you want to speculate life without the P&L consider the Funk would not have been elected so who knows what would have happened with a different mayor. Or speculate how development and redevelopment would have occurred if the city would have had a bond issue like Tulsa and OKC.

There are at least two ways to judge the P&L. One as a stand alone project, the way it was sold to the citizens as something that would be self supporting. The second as a loss leader project, the way it was not sold to the citizens as dependent on a city subsidy to help retire bonds issued for the project.

Source.



Nobody is claiming this was done perfectly......it was published multiple times the margins were "razor thin". The city decided the risk was worth the reward. This is the part I think we've discussed over and over and over and....

Mean...that conclusion has been made, why do we need to rehash this every 6 months? Totally agree projections need to be more realistic.


All that being said, the spinoff business is way larger than just what the P&L proper contributes which Fang demonstrates in great detail. How much does Sprint Center return to the city every year alone, $2M? Business retention, relocation, residents staying and moving in (I can tell you now there is a high probability I wouldn't still be living down here if Cosentinos wouldn't have been built), conventions incoming.

No doubt redevelopment was happening downtown but without an anchor like P&L, it would not be "back" to 90% of the KC metro and 95% of the regional tourist....

so I guess at this point we can all conclude the financing could have been completed with more realistic numbers....done. Now let's move forward and work to make P&L contribute as much to the city as possible....unless it's more productive talking 5+ year old financing decisions...again.

I'm not interested in arguing the decision, I'm just pointing out that the decision (and the associated fallout, like the perception that we were lied to, and reinforcement of the age-old idea that KCMO can't do anything right) is not a dead horse. It has damaged the city, from a PR perspective, for years and perhaps for a decade or more to come. It has screwed us out of using similar financing schemes for future downtown projects. I hardly think that's a dead horse. Every year this thing doesn't perform, it's more of a fresh albatross than a dead horse.

As far as working to make P&L contribute as much to the city as possible, sure, let's do it. What should I do?

Go ride the bull at PBR. that will make it all ok.

I would sooner dive face-first off the balcony outside Angel's Rock Bar.